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Baja Forums -:- VW Volkswagen Bug, Baja, Bus, Sandrail and Thing -:- VW Volkswagen & Baja Bug General Discussion -:- Baja Questions, Getting in the loop!
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Baja Questions, Getting in the loop!
Bug, Baja, Thing and Buggies. Most every thing that will not fit any any other area. See list of other Forums for better topic placement...Volkswagen General Discussion
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The following users give thanks for this topic Anonymous - Fri Apr 10, 2009 01:15 PM
Patzke
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Post Post subject: Baja Questions, Getting in the loop!
Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 08:29 AM
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Hello All!

Have a 71' baja in progress, and a 69 I want to pick up in PHX this weekend.

Trying to get more in the loop of everything, just had a few questions:

Could someone link me to an explanation of cutting and turning, or explain it?

Could someone link me to an explanation of 3x3 arms and their advantages, or explain it?

I'll have more questions soon!

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57baja
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Post Post subject: Re: Baja Questions, Getting in the loop!
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 08:48 AM
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Cutting and turning refers to the front end. The two front torsion tubes carry springs inside that keep your tension on your trailing arms, thus providing support for your car. When you cut the middles out of them, turn them 1/4"+++, it changes the amount of preload on your springs. This, in turn, makes your car run higher (and rougher).

3x3 arms are used on the rear. What this means is that the rear trailing arms are 3" longer than stock, as well as 3" wider than stock. They make these special arms in a variety of different sizes (3x2, 4x5, etc), but 3x3's are the most popular. The longer arms provide for a softer ride and more wheel travel, as it moves you wheel further from the pivot point, thus adding additional leverage. In other words, when you add a cheater bar on a wrench to break loose a hard nut, you use less force to do the same amount of work. When you raise the car's center of gravity (by lifting it higher), you also make it less stable in turns, and more likely to flip sideways. Thus the extra 6" wider (3" times on both sides) makes it more stable.

You next question is most likely to be why a 6" wider beam up front? The same principle applies. When you make it wider, it will be more stable, side-to-side.

I hope that helps.

For reference, I run 3x3's with 1" wider disc brakes, and 33x12.50" tires. That makes my car about 19" wider in the rear than a stock bug with 7" wide tires: Each side: 3" + 1" + 5.5" = 9.5 Multiply that by 2 (each side) and you get around 19".

They also make longer trailing arms for the front.

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Patzke
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Post Post subject: Re: Baja Questions, Getting in the loop!
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 05:49 PM
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Gaaaaaaaaaa, Perfect!

Exactly the answers I was looking for and more! I did some research, and looking on the bugs around me - and I figured out the 3x3 stuff. That makes perfect sense.

On the Cut and Turn, my guess is that the torsion bars are within the front end there, I will understand when I see and look at it. Smile

IRS suspension is obviously better, right? What year was it that they started throwing it on the Bugs? How horrible is a Baja without IRS, and if it doesn't have IRS, how bad is the conversion?

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chrispy56
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Post Post subject: Re: Baja Questions, Getting in the loop!
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 08:56 PM
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they first had irs in 1969. so both your 71 and 69 should have it. unless they did a half year in 69. my entire conversion came from a 69 parts car. when your travel moves up and down your tires stay about 90 degrees to the ground, giving you better traction and stability and lowers your chances of rolling over when cornering or side hilling, etc. also longer tire life. the swing axle does not provide these advantages. the irs conversion is fairly simple and requires the whole rear suspension system including the transaxle, plus the trailing arm pivot bracket. it is best done with the body off to insure good welds.

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Patzke
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Post Post subject: Re: Baja Questions, Getting in the loop!
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 09:38 PM
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Thanks for the input, it really helps! I understand about the IRS, and the non IRS stuff now. is the trans axel something you would buy or something you would pull off of an IRS bug? Can I do long travel and other suspension upgrades with a non-IRS bug: let's say a 67?

Looking at a few bugs right now in the Tucson and Phoenix areas. Trying to buy a baja thatS somewhat complete. Looking at a 67 I'm Tucson and a 69 in Phx. Would anyone reccomend AGAINST getting a baja without IRS? I.e. 1967 Baja

With that being said - anyone have a Baja In the Tucson phoenix areas theyre wanting to sell?

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chrispy56
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Post Post subject: Re: Baja Questions, Getting in the loop!
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 02:21 AM
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the desired front suspension (link pin) WAS made up until 65. the desired rear suspension (IRS) WASNT made until 69. i would stay away from the 66, 67, and 68 models. i would rather convert to irs from swing axle than to link pin from ball joint.

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Patzke
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Post Post subject: Re: Baja Questions, Getting in the loop!
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 04:21 AM
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Thank you Chrispy!

How bad is it to actually use, and run a swing axle off road? Is it a totally different experience from running IRS? If it's a horrible ride, and not anywhere near as nice, I will not even bother with the 67 Baja here in Tucson.

How expensive is the swing axle to IRS conversion?

Again: Anyone have a Baja they're selling here in Tucson and/or Phoenix?

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ditch68
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Post Post subject: Re: Baja Questions, Getting in the loop!
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 05:47 AM
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Hi, Patzke, and welcome aboard.

First off, I live here in Tucson, but possibly more importantly (based on your location description) I work right in your area.

Maybe we could meet, I would be happy to share some info and go for a ride in my bug.

I will explain how they work, what you can improve, and ....of course,...cost! @#$%^%!


You have come to the right place.

Jeff


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1961 Baja www.azbaja.com/ForumsP...=3203.html
1600 DP, IRS, LP... and lots of spray paint.
1971 Type 3 Squareback FI/AT
1988 Porsche 924S (Yes, it's a Porsche engine)

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chrispy56
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Post Post subject: Re: Baja Questions, Getting in the loop!
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 06:09 AM
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the cost of the conversion depends on what you can find as far as a parts car with the irs components. i spent a little over $100 on the 1969 parts car and the brackets that need to be welded in. I ran swing axle for about 4-6 months before converting and noticed the difference right away. It all depends on how you will use your car.

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ditch68
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Post Post subject: Re: Baja Questions, Getting in the loop!
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 06:22 AM
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IRS > swing, by far. It is a truly unsettling experience when your swingaxle car starts getting unassed at speed.

I personally would rather deal with a balljoint front end and have IRS than do a swingaxle car again.

Jeff


_________________
Beer is NOT AN OPTION....

(meaning not optional)

1961 Baja www.azbaja.com/ForumsP...=3203.html
1600 DP, IRS, LP... and lots of spray paint.
1971 Type 3 Squareback FI/AT
1988 Porsche 924S (Yes, it's a Porsche engine)

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57baja
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Post Post subject: Re: Baja Questions, Getting in the loop!
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 07:42 AM
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Ditto that. Don't by a baja that is both swing and ball joint. I think 67's and 68's are in that category, and I'm not sure about 66's. You'd be better served to ride a bicycle with bald tires on and ice skating rink with roller skates on.

M point is, it can be done, but it's certainly not easy or pretty. I'd keep it an early 70's model, but BY ALL MEANS... DON'T BUY A SUPER BEETLE!

You can convert a ball joint (least desireable) front end to king pin in a variety of different ways, and it will be less expensive to do than an IRS conversion. IRS is without a doubt the way to go. As ditch said, ball joint is do-able, too. I ran mine for many years before I converted over to the real deal. I had only one problem ever, and it was while turning a corner on pavement at about 1 mph.

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Patzke
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Post Post subject: Re: Baja Questions, Getting in the loop!
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 08:29 AM
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57Baja:

Caught that on the Super Beetle thing right away, no one likes those for Baja conversions. Running down to Chirco tomorrow with my 71 for a few pointers, and checking out the 67', decieded i dont really want to mess with the swing axle, just buy one thats IRS. I still want to take a look at that bug. Smile

Jeff: Where do you abouts do you work, and when will you be up in this area next? I will PM you my number if you want to give me a call, and maybe we could meet up soon, that would be EXTREMLY helpful. By the way, know of anyone selling a bug? Wink Making sure to explore all my options, not missing a bug being sold.

Unfortunately Baja supply in Tucson isn't high enough. Sad Most likely going to go to Phx and look at this bug: phoenix.craigslist.org...58313.html

and This bug: phoenix.craigslist.org...97926.html

If anyone lives near there, and wants to check them out, so i dont waste a trip, PM me! Smile

Thanks again for all of your input everyone!

Anyone (that lives close to me) need anything from Chirco tomorrow?

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chrispy56
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Post Post subject: Re: Baja Questions, Getting in the loop!
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 05:20 PM
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both of those look to be in great shape.

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Patzke
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Post Post subject: Re: Baja Questions, Getting in the loop!
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 06:06 PM
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Yeah, they do. Unfortunately I cannot go out to look at them until tomorrow. Sad

Hopefully their still around.. Confused

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chrispy56
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Post Post subject: Re: Baja Questions, Getting in the loop!
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 06:17 PM
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good luck

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