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Baja Forums -:- AzBaja.com Members -:- Projects and Builds -:- Project 57
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Project 57
Tell us about your Project, Were you at in tyour build. Post Pictures etc.
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57baja
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Post Post subject: Project 57
Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 08:41 AM
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Well, I hope this turns out to be a short project, but you know how these things go. The weather's getting nice and it's baja time.

I WANT OUT!!!!

Before I can get serious, however, I need to fix a couple of things:

- Since I built my new engine with a 1-1/2 qt sump, the engine hangs lower than the rear bumper. This ain't gonna cut it. I need to redesign the bumper and skid plate to accommodate a deeper sump.

- I have 771 miles on the new 2187 that I built, and it's not running right. It burns oil like a mad dog and I need to figure out why. It runs REALLY well, other than that, and it's pretty damn fast. I just can't stand the smoke and the oil consumption and it's driving me CRAZY dammit!

- Since the camshaft should be well broken in, it's time to pull the heads and put the second set of valve springs on.

So I drove the bug home from work today, pulled the engine, and started the disassembly process. For me, starting a project is always the hardest part. I'm committed now, though.

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57baja
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Post Post subject: Re: Project 57
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 09:09 AM
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Oh boy.

This ain't pretty.

I got home after 10:00, after working with the kid on baseball stuff, but I absolutely had to see what I was up against with the baja, so I headed out to the garage and I pulled the heads tonight.

I found #1 and #3 cylinders looking pretty good inside, although it dawned on me in the middle of the day today why it's running rich at idle and when I'm decelerating (fuel pressure too high). However, I've got some real problems with #2 and #4. I'm not sure exactly why yet, but they have definite major oil leakage, as you can see from the pictures. I suspect ring problems, but who knows. I deliberately didn't break the seals on the P/C's to check it further, because I really don't have the time tonight to get into it much further.

On the one hand, I'm really bummed that I've got to get into this issue on a BRAND NEW engine that I've dreamed of building for 20 years or more. In the other hand, however, I realize that this is the first time I've ever built a motor from the ground up by myself, so it's not surprising that I've run into a problem of some sort.

I'm just anxious to get it back on the road soon, and I hope this doesn't put me in the poor-house.

I guess this is what makes building these things fun.






I'm open to any insight or thoughts from you guys.

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locutisj
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Post Post subject: Re: Project 57
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 02:11 PM
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YIKES! That SUCKS!
I would guess rings bad or never seated, perhaps out of alignment.
Hopefully nothing serious.
I've been out of that realm for so long I decided to let a buddy whom stayed up with it, build my enginge. Plus I was banking on getting the body/chassis done when he finishes the motor.
Any way 57, hope your problem turns out to be an easy/cheap fix.


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BugZyla.com
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Post Post subject: Re: Project 57
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 03:31 PM
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Well 2 things I would check.

First check the ring gaps and make sure they are not all lined up.

Looking at the pic it looks like there is a shadow/stain down in the cylinder about where the oil ring would be, cant tell for sure from the pics but if if is then you have bad oil rings. I ran into that problem with a set of muskegon rings in a small block one time, and the cylinders pumping oil had a shadow where the oil ring sits at TDC in the cylinder.

When you check the oil ring make sure the ring tensioner in the center hasnt been overlapped at the seam also.

Either way it looks like a simple fix, just ball hone the cylinders, throw a new set of rings in, clean up the heads and throw it together.


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57baja
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Post Post subject: Re: Project 57
Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 09:43 AM
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Well, Since the heads were off, I disassembled them and took out the valves to check and make sure they weren't leaking oil down through the valve guides. They all looked good, so I cleaned the heads up as best as possible and reassembled them with the inner set of valve springs.

... one goal accomplished....

I figured I'd just bite the bullet and buy another set of jugs to put in, rather than re-ringing the set of P/C's that I have. It sounded like an easier way to make sure the problem doesn't come back when I reassemble everything. I prepped everything, cleaned and painted the cylinders with flat black BBQ paint, and and am ready to begin putting everything back together. Hopefully this will be done tomorrow or Tuesday.

I did take a break today to help Chris, a fellow AzBaja member, weld in his front ball joint adjusters and sent him on his way with some ideas for his front end.

My steel order didn't come in yet, so I hope to have soon. That way, I can modify the bumper before the engine gets back it.

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Lucky7-11
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Post Post subject: Re: Project 57
Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 05:08 PM
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57,
Sorry to hear about the problems...
Were biting at the bit to get the Baja on the road here too.. But, Were waiting for the snow to melt... LOL
Sounds like you have it under control..
One quick check you might make as you put it back together.. Check to make sure your (vents) breather and lines are not blocked.. This happened on one of my rails, I had oil seeping every where, just to much pressure build up...

"I Can't Take The Pressure"

Good Luck Let us know what you find...


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57baja
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Post Post subject: Re: Project 57
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 09:27 AM
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Thanks for the input. The venting looks OK, it's hard plumbed aluminum tubing and it's unobstructed.

Here's where I'm at: Of course, the thing isn't back together yet. Things never go how you want them to. When you have a family, that takes priority. You know how it is. The kid needed help with baseball again and who could pass that up?

I installed the pistons in the cylinders tonight, and started cleaning and prepping everything to go back in. I was hoping to get it reassembled, but I'm taking my time, as being thorough now will pay HUGE dividends in the future. Here are a few things I've been thinking about:

1) I have Jaycee pushrod tubes. I originally installed them so that the springs side was closer to the heads, as the sleeve that fits inside was outward, thinking that as the oil traveled from the heads back into the sump, it would be less likely to leak at the seam because it would be going downhill. However... as I explained in a previous post, I was going to install 1.25 rockers but had problems (oh gosh did I have problems) with the pushrods hitting the tubes (amongst other things). Since the bigger flange is on the other side, I'm going to be installing them the other way and trying to install the 1.25's again. I guess they were designed to be installed that way, so i'm hoping that won't be a problem. I'm also hoping my 1.25's will fit now. Of course, I'll need to disassemble my rocker arms again, for about the 5th time. Wish me luck.

2) With the 1.25's on, I had a bit of trouble with the geometry of the rocker arms, too. It looked like I needed to shorten the pushrods, OR shim the heads out away from the block to correct this. Since I've got this whole damn thing apart, I was thinking about adding a second set of barrel shims to correct the geometry. I have them already in the garage. Right now, my compression ratio is 8.5 to 1. If I add the second set of cylinder shims, it will put it at 8.3 to 1. Does anybody have any thoughts about running two sets of barrel shims? I know my compression ratio is already fairly tame, and I've always been cautious about this, but I won't be sacrificing much HP to gain HP will I? The damn car ran pretty well as it was.

3) Berg swears that even moderate cams shouldn't be run with 1.25's, but Engle says they designed the 110 cam to run with either 1.1's or 1.25's. Anyone running this configuration? I'v got a rev-limiter that doesn't let me go past 5800 rpm's and (now) I have dual springs and fully match-ported 044 heads with 44 Webers. I figure it should be fine, but maybe someone out there knows better.

4) I'm sticking with the stock rings this time. When I originally built it, I put in Total Seals (which should really be named "Total Pains"), but I figured I'd try to keep things on the simple side for now. I also opted to use the Bugpack retainers, rather than teflon buttons, as I'm just not a big fan of the buttons. I used them last time because I didn't have any of the better wrist pin keepers around and I don't really like the looks of those tiny little wire ones.

5) Another thought, since I'm rambling already... Over the years, I've seen a lot of pushrod tube leaks on VW engines, and I absolutely LOATHE oil leaks. I've always smeared a small dab of silicone around my seals where they meet the block and the heads, just as a precaution. Am I being over-zealous? I'm also using silicone seals, rather than the stock rubber ones. Is this overkill, or a good investment?

On another note...

Is it just me, or am I the only one who absolutely hates putting pistons inside the cylinders? Maybe its my ring compressor (I've got several different ones), but I just dread this part of the job. The rings always seem to give me a helluva time getting inside those sleeves! Maybe someone has a "wetsuit" trick that makes this job go smooooother.

Luv you guys, and I appreciate the insight here!





BTW - I found at least one of the cylinders scored, and one of the pistons had two small chunks out of it when I took everything apart. I didn't look at them all that carefully, as I knew some new ones were going in, but maybe if I feel a bit ambitious later, I'll post some pics. I know we all love to see pics!!! I also had some weird discoloration in the cylinder walls that I'd be curious to know about.



--57 out

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oldfart
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Post Post subject: Re: Project 57
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:54 PM
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Is it just me, or am I the only one who absolutely hates putting pistons inside the cylinders? Maybe its my ring compressor (I've got several different ones), but I just dread this part of the job. The rings always seem to give me a helluva time getting inside those sleeves! Maybe someone has a "wetsuit" trick that makes this job go smooooother.

Hi, my name is oldfart and I hate overhauling VW engines. Putting together cases, lining up piston rings, always wondering.....whew! I feel better.
So you aren't alone. I've done a few long ago and they actually ran alright, but I HATE it! I always pay somebody elso to do the longblock assembly, or at least the case asm. and cylinders. I admire your courage. Go forth and torque yourself Laughing










--57 out[/quote]


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57baja
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Post Post subject: Re: Project 57
Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 08:22 AM
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UPDATE:

I tore down and reassembled the engine with new P/C's. In doing so, I took off the oil sump plate to reseal it and inspect what junk may have been left behind on it. I figured there might be some crud on it, and I was a bit surprised at what I found. There was some pretty big chunks of metal in there. I should probably be fairly worried about what is going on inside the engine because of the debris I found, but for some reason I'm thinking that this might me OK? I'm really not sure, though. Thank God for oil filters! I put four REALLY STRONG magnets on the sump plate before I reinstalled it, and I'm hoping everything will be all right. Cross your fingers.

I also spent the entire weekend trying to modify the rear bumper so as to protect the 1-1/2 qt sump that the engine has. I bought a tubing bender and managed to waste a whole bunch of steel tubing trying to modify my old bumper. I suppose I got something accomplished, though. I managed to make one hoop and weld it on. Guess I need another 20' of tubing and I'll give it another shot.

Getting back to the engine, I decided to lower the compression just a hair (from 8.5 to 8.3) by adding spacers for my cylinders to make the 1.25 rocker arms I bought have better geometry. I installed two spacers on each cylinder, and I hope that I don't regret that. I suppose oil leaks are a possibility. I also turned the pushrod tubes around, and for giggles, I didn't seal them like I usually do. I'm hoping that the 1.25's give me a bit better breathing (HP), and I realize I traded a bit if compression to get it. I'm willing to take my chances, despite Gene Berg's input. I also changed the oil temp sender from the drain plug type to my old one that replaced the dipstick. I know that one works good! I used it for years.

One thing that came up that I'm having trouble working through, though: The cylinder tins don't meet flush against the crank case anymore. I know I'm losing a bit of cooling, and I need to address this ASAP. Anyone have an idea? I've got my own, but I'd be interested in hearing yours.


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Post Post subject: Re: Project 57
Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 06:09 PM
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Personally, I'd not sweat the gap in the tin unless your gauge reads something bad. just my 2cents. Good looking engine, wicked stance from the rear. Did I just say your wheels have a nice butt?


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Post Post subject: Re: Project 57
Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 09:28 PM
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The gap is fine from what we can see, the metal in the oil though, where did it come from? only a few things inside are metal and they should not be breaking. From what I was told use the white pushrod tube seals best out there from what I hear.


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Post Post subject: Re: Project 57
Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 08:15 AM
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I was kinda worried about you oldfart. Now you're telling me I have a good looking rear end? Say no more. I've heard enough.

As far as the metal parts Leather, I'm not all that comfortable with them in there. I guess I should have ran a magnet through them to see if they were steel or almuninum/magnesium. I haven't looked at the P/C's all that close that I took out. I do remember seeing a small chunk out of one of the pistons right at the wrist pin opening. That may explain some of it. Truly I'm bit nervous, but heck: I've been around dubs for a long time, too. I've pulled worse things out of a bug than this. When I was young, poor and stupid; I drove on things that I knew I shouldn't have... And put a helluva lot of miles on it without troubles. Although I don't want to throw out common sense entirely, I don't want to worry myself sick, either. I'm going to drive on it a bit and see what happens next.

You guys don't think the gap around the tins is a big deal, huh? I've always been careful about those sorts of things, even to the point of making sure my plug wire insulators fit on as perfectly as possible around the cylinder tins. You're probably right. I'm just freaky about overheating this thing. The tin gap is something I can see, ad if I can see it, I can fix it. The metal crap is something I may never find out about, even if I split the case. I'm not as concerned about what I can't really get at for the moment.

I was thinking of splitting some fuel line and running it up between the tins and the case to fill the gap and keep my air going around the cylinders. It should be a simple fix.

Thanks for the input fellas.

I do appreciate it.

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locutisj
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Post Post subject: Re: Project 57
Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 03:51 PM
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57Baja,
"You don't want any cooling air to escape from the engine without doing it's share of the cooling job, so be sure to plug any openings in the sheet metal cowling, including making sure the spark-plug seals are correctly installed and that the heater openings, if not used and connected to the heater hoses are securly closed off."

Direct quote from "How to Hotrod Volkswagen Engines" by Bill Fisher, H.P. Books.

So I'm with you, seal them holes as best you can so the engine gets all the cooling air possible.


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Post Post subject: Re: Project 57
Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 05:44 PM
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IMO...cutting for a baja possibly hinders cooling. We are removing the engine from its sealed compartment, kind of like taking the housing off a blower fan. just imo...
I assume you are running cool tin, but what about the tin underneath? can't tell if you heater boxes or not, and is that a o.g. fan shroud and cooler? Flaps and t/stat? Maybe that's why I was always more comfortable with a raggedy worn engine. They just go and go and go.
Still got a good looking butt, 57 Laughing


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57baja
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57baja

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Joined: Jan 07, 2008
Posts: 1582
Location: Pasadena, California
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Post Post subject: Re: Project 57
Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 08:03 AM
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I'm generally of the opinion myself that bajas should run cooler, as they have less restrictions in the body for cooling air to flow. Who knows though? No, my heater boxes are LONG GONE and I have upswept exhaust that gets that heat source out from under the engine. No flaps, no T-stat, and an aftermarket fan shroud (all bad things, I know) No cooler inside the shroud, but the one over it is up and out of the engine airflow and has its own electric fan with thermostat. Thankfully, I live in SoCal where it doesn't get that cold, but it DOES GET HOT. It's more set up to shed heat faster, rather than warm up quicker. There's always a trade off. I'm going to run the fuel line fix for now on the tins and see what happens.

UPDATE:

I actually made a bit of progress tonight. I think I've got the hang of this bender now. I semi-welded the lower rear hoops to the bumper and figured out a way to mount them that I thought would be fairly easy to service, strong, and cool looking. When you try to make something that has all three of these things going for it, it can be a challenge.





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