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Baja Forums -:- VW Volkswagen Bug, Baja, Bus, Sandrail and Thing -:- VW Volkswagen & Baja Bug General Discussion -:- other engines for bajas
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other engines for bajas
Bug, Baja, Thing and Buggies. Most every thing that will not fit any any other area. See list of other Forums for better topic placement...Volkswagen General Discussion
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The following users give thanks for this topic Anonymous - Tue Apr 14, 2009 04:39 PM
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Post Post subject: Re: other engines for bajas
Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 08:20 AM
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wow! those are top dollar. there's one local shop but his prices make me laugh, he also doesn't seem to wanna sell any parts without him installing them. anyways if i were to put that kind of cash into different performance mods for a 2.3 would i be able to keep up with those rails at the dunes?


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Post Post subject: Re: other engines for bajas
Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 08:40 AM
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possibly with turbo


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Post Post subject: Re: other engines for bajas
Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:00 AM
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you cant go fast in the desert or the dunes without good suspension. which cost more money,$$$$

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Post Post subject: Re: other engines for bajas
Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 07:43 PM
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I would agree that suspension is more important off-road than an engine. We had a buggy with good suspension and a 1600 VW engine that was faster offroad than a turbo baja with stock-ish suspension. The difference was that I could get up to speed and stay there and they were having to slow down to keep control.

What it comes down to is that if you have to skills and a good plan, you can put whatever engine that you like in there. Any engine can be good or bad and I wouldn't say there is one that is the best. Go with what you like.

-Mark


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Post Post subject: Re: other engines for bajas
Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 08:30 PM
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Ah! At last! We have some middleground to agree on!!!


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Post Post subject: Re: other engines for bajas
Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 06:02 AM
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lets say all variables were the same(duplicate rails), only difference being ones rear end(including suspension) was ready for a 2100+ turbo and the other ready for a 2.3.

the prices on those links for a turnkey turbo were around 5,000. if you put that much money in buying a 2.3, the adapter plate, performance mods, and whatever i might be forgetting, which do you guys think would perform better


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Post Post subject: Re: other engines for bajas
Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 07:30 AM
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$6000 gets you 215HP @ 5500RPM and 252 FtLb torque @ 5000RPM Trun Key Turbo VW

Stock Ford Turbo 2.3 is 190HP and 240 FtLb torque.

I'm push close to 150HP on a carb 2.3 and $200 for the motor (junk Yard), header $200, Intake $200, Addapter Plate $200, Roller cam $200, rebuild kit $350. So I'm into it about $1400, and into the 150hp range, stock HP is 95HP so you can go on the cheap too.

As for being heavy? You never notice it. the car is real smooth off road. It will not come around like hammer as most people think. The car ends up being lighter on the front and will push before the back will ever come unglued. I have had it in the car for 12 years now and it has never failed to start even after the time a broke a piston ring. Just opended it up and dropped a new Slug into the car and was ready to go.

The 2.3 is the 2nd if not the 1st most converted engine next to the chevy 350.

Just somthing to think about too. If you ever talk to any one who has a 2.3 Baja, Rail, 914, Mustang, truck etc. all love this little engine and would more than likly never go back to what came in the car from the factory if not at all. (Well Some people get them stock aka the ford guys)

Now you can do this for a lot less than $6000 ask the chicken man. And did I say stock?

If you would like to buy a race version.

www.esslingeracing.com...engine.htm

www.esslingeracing.com...mphlet.pdf


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Post Post subject: Re: other engines for bajas
Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 09:27 AM
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Now here ya go again... Ya had to keep it going.

Well assuming the identical Setup on each car was suited for the added power and weight. I still dont know where you are getting a $6K motor from... Aircooled.net is one of the most expensive VW shops(I say shop liberally, they are a complete joke around town here, but their parts are quality-just overpriced) that I know of. Their absolutely most expensive kit is for a 2275cc motor that even after adding on all their chromoly add-on's and perfomance parts, your still only at 1144.00. Another $400-$1000 for your heads depending on you ability to do head work, and maybe another $100 for random parts. Another $2400(Again this is on the high side still) for your turbo kit.
So far this $6000 is pretty far away, and this is from the most expensive retail sources I know of.

Now, since your talkin junkyards its only fair I get my chance.

That turbo kit (with the right know-how)can be cut to practically nothing.
A turbo off a rearended honda/hundai/ford/volvo=$60-$65
Tubing to build exhaust= $25
External wastegate (if turbo isn't equiped internally)= $15 (ebay)
Insulated oil lines&fittings=$30
You are paying AJ Simms more for R&D and time than actuall parts.

That motor kit could easily be trimmed as well. Ive know builders that use certain Ford pistons, and certain Ford/Chev H-beam rods. These come in sets of 8 and still cost less than SCAT H-beams and pistons.

Power wise, a 1915 can make over 300hp, I wont try to guess at what our little fantasy 2275cc motor would/could make because of the many thousands of variables that go into that.

The car ends up being lighter on the front and will push before the back will ever come unglued
I don't know the kind of off-road driving you do, but one of the major flaws in baja's is the fact that they already push, your only adding to a problem by adding rear weight.


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Post Post subject: Re: other engines for bajas
Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 08:27 PM
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I say agree to disagree, good points have been made on both sides. It comes down to personal choice, ability, and most of all budget. Just do what you want to do, build it, drive it like you stole it, and have a good time doin. Twisted Evil


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Post Post subject: Re: other engines for bajas
Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:39 PM
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bajasam96 you can get me a turnkey with all forged parts and chromoly parts for $1144 from a reputable dealer? I want on the list for that price.

I think your prices are really off. a good turbo engine will run you $6000 and it is pertty much a couple season engine. where a stock turbo FI engine will put down just as much powah and last you 10x longer, plus the benifit of not having to do irregular maintenance(valves, retightening heads, tuning). You just don't have to do that on later model FI engines. Then your talking headwork and other PITA work.



You can get turbo engine 4 bangers for $500 MAX, hell my v6 turbo was $200 for the whole car and I parted it out and made $75 after it was said and done. the adapter was $500 and that was with the clutch and pp which you also forgot on your list. another $500 for adaption parts like radiator, hose-pipe, fans, antifreeze, sawzall blades. These parts can be found way cheaper and some I already had laying around. This does take some time to install also but no longer than a homemade turbo kit.

So figure $1500 for a poor boy(me) conversion, which is way cheaper than even a built bug engine with no boost, and way more fun, hp, and reliability, with less hassle.

I am not here to bag on the bug engine, just setting the facts strait, now I seen guys with $4000 sti engines in the back, so you could even go expen$ive if you wanted with a conversion as well, but alot of us baja'ers ane cheap and we just want reliability, and that what you want offroad anyways. why you think they went to typeV in the baja races? more reliability and more powah, well the water pumpers are even better at those two.

bajasam96 I also would like to see the dyno graphs of the 1914 putting down 300hp


I never had one issue with my rotary or never heard of anyone havin probs with rear weight either, unless you have first hand expierence(which I and azbaja and alot of other people have). my N/A rotary engine in mine had NO issues and I was pretty hard core action on the street and some offroad.

bajasam96 I am not tryin to bash you but you seem like a purist, which in the baja world wont work.

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Post Post subject: Re: other engines for bajas
Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 05:06 AM
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Im far from a purist, I run a GM E-coil ignition on my own baja, Chev power windows. Ford power seat rails. Volvo turbo. Ford pistons... When I build a high hp motor, most of the time I DO use a T4. Im a huge fan of the T4 motors and am building a turbo T4 as we speak for my baja. Bus trans. Vanagon Axles. My baja is the bastard child of many brands.

I have never build a couple season engine In fact the first engines I built (5 years ago) are still used as daily drivers...

I'm really not going to get into a price fight, $1144 is on the low end of regular retail. But who actually pays full regular retail? Some of the best parts out there can regularly be found at some pretty mind blowing prices...

where a stock turbo FI engine will put down just as much powah and last you 10x longer Now now be carefull, I just built a Turbo F/I T-1 engine... Just because its a bug doesnt mean it cant or wont be F/I


bajasam96 I also would like to see the dyno graphs of the 1914 putting down 300hp. As for the turbo motor quoted, It was just buit by kawell and dyno'd and socumented by Hot VW's sometime near the end of last year. Peak HP was at 361 HP. I am not saying that this was a regular or streetable setup, merely testing. There are 2000cc+ engines that pull 400+hp and 400+Tq that are driven on the street. Race engines these days can supply well over 500 hp!

You may not be here to bag on the "old" engine, but you greatly underestimate it! I dont believe in giving up on an idea that is completely realistic. The mentality that "its old so it must be obsolete and be replaced" seems childish at best to me.


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Post Post subject: Re: other engines for bajas
Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 02:05 PM
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somthing no on ever looks at is cooling and HP. The more HP you make the more heat you will produce. It's simple math. you have 100ci engine that makes 400hp vs a 400ci engine that makes 400hp.

400 hp makes a lot of heat and the smaller engine can not get rid of all that heat as well as the larger engines. Smaller engines have less internal surface area to disipate the heat and external surfaces so once you go to water cool you can increase the external cooling surface area with the radiator. That is why you see alot of of people that have heat problems with High HP engines thay do not take into account the heat all that HP will make and do not figure in the cooling factor.

Things also to look at
400ci engine will make 1hp per ci will give you 400hp
100ci engine will make 4hp per ci will give you 400hp

Thats is a lot of stress on the smaller engine.

Engines are simple air pumps

so you can increase the RPM of the smaller engine to equal the capacity of the larger engein

100ci engine needs to turn at 12000rpm to move the same pump the same amount of air as the 400ci engine at 3000rpm

Now your need to have lighter and stronger internal and external (Valves) parts for that type of RPM and you must not exceed the MAX piston speed. this has nothing to do with RPM but the speed the piston moves. That is why short stroke motors wind better than long stroke motors. The piston can never move faster than the flame front. that is why people go from fuels like diesl to gas to nitro etc. each fuel has a burn rate to keep in mind, how fast will this stuff burn. that is why you never will see a diesl turn at 10000rpm

tos in a turbo or blower for fun this will help add air to the mix. air presure is 14.7psi per sq in at sea level

Altitude Air Pressure
Sea level 14.7 PSI
10,000 feet 10.2 PSI
20,000 feet 6.4 PSI
30,000 feet 4.3 PSI
40,000 feet 2.7 PSI
50,000 feet 1.6 PSI

The strange thing with most boost if not all boost gauges thay will read zero under now boost at 0 feet or 50,000 feet.

So to help our little 100ci engine we ad a turbo that has a boost of 14.7psi now that is 2x times the amount of air if it had 0 boost at sea level.

Now we only need to have 6000 RPM for 100ci engine to move the same amount of air as the 400ci engine at 3000 RPM

I used all basic numbers for this stuff and did not feel like pulling out the books and doing long math.

The key things to look at are

The bigger in size the more HP will Go UP
The More HP will GO up the more heat your engine will make
The more air you flow the more HP you can make

Can O worms just has been opened. It's been years from the time I built my last drag race motor but I can pull out the books and do the math, and I bet/know we have computer programs that do it know of days too. Smile


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Post Post subject: Re: other engines for bajas
Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 08:01 AM
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This arguement never ceases to amaze me, no one will ever win, but it is one hell of a lot of fun to read, and I learned more about vw's and motor conversions in this thread in the last 15 minutes than in the last 6 months of rooting around on the net.

ALL of you guys rock!!!


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Post Post subject: Re: other engines for bajas
Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 08:07 PM
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AzBaja wrote:
Who wants to paly tug-o-war?
i think this just about sums it up..... Wink

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Post Post subject: Re: other engines for bajas
Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 07:01 PM
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It's all about the fun factor. The issues that come into play are:
reliability
drivability
cost
appearance

Every body has their own opinion about what works for them, so here's mine. Very Happy

If you want a modern state of the art, reliable, driveable and affordable power plant the obvious way to go is H2O.

If you are going to pony up for an adapter kit and fab up a car for H2O, why not get the best bang for the buck....V6

There are a lot of all aluminum V6's out there that weigh less than the 2.3 ford and put out more power than the turbo motor. The only drawback is the price however as time goes on these motors will become more affordable. These motors don't have to work as hard to achieve the same work. The peak power is at a lower RPM.

The VW power plant was a good unit in it's day but the writing is on the wall. It's on it's way to becomming obsolete.
I say that based on the number of VW aftermarket advertisers I see dwindling in the magazines.


Again this is just my opinion.

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