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Baja Forums -:- VW Volkswagen Bug, Baja, Bus, Sandrail and Thing -:- VW Volkswagen & Baja Bug General Discussion -:- Solenoid/Starter, eh?
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Solenoid/Starter, eh?
Bug, Baja, Thing and Buggies. Most every thing that will not fit any any other area. See list of other Forums for better topic placement...Volkswagen General Discussion
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bugengr
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Post Post subject: Solenoid/Starter, eh?
Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:01 AM
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First post here thought I’d make it a good one. I’ve worked on a number of different projects, but this is my first bug/baja project, so I’m still becoming familiar with the setup and intricacies of the VW. The story goes something like this… I’ve acquired a 1970 beetle that has not been driven in probably 20 years, but has been stored under cover. I’ve been told that when it was parked for the last time, everything worked and the car was fully operational. Well, decades later, it’s pretty rusty. I don’t know how much work might be required to get the vehicle running, but it can’t be that hard.

I started by changing the oil. The old oil didn’t have any sludge as far as I could tell, it was runny but black. I checked the wiring in the engine and everything looks to be connected. I opened the distributor and checked the points. I do not have a tool to measure gap distance, but at least the points are filed and cleaned. I didn’t mess with the air filter. Oh, added gas too. Rolling Eyes

I brought my own battery along, so I know there is a good source of electricity. The lights work, but when I turn the key, all I get is “click”. Two red lights come on (gas and oil) on the dash. So I crawl under the car and use a screw driver to connect the two bolts on the solenoid. Nothing, it’s dead, except for a bunch of sparks. Hm… So I take a look at the solenoid and starter setup on the 1972 bug. I notice that the ‘72 has two red wires, each one going to a pin connection. Looking at the ’70 again I notice there is only one big gray wire with a pin connection, and it is connected to the top (horizontal) pin. I've already disconnected the two wires from the solenoid in the picture below. No wire was connected at #2. Other big gray wire that bolts on #3 is not shown.



So, now for the questions… I think the solenoid might be bad in the 70, can it be replaced with the one from the 72? And what’s the deal with the difference in electrical connection?

What else would be recommended to do to the vehicle to get it running? Keep in mind, I’d like to get it running (ok, let’s just shoot for getting it started), with as little money as possible. I like a challenge, and buying all new parts doesn’t count. I plan on using the 72 as a parts car. Ideas?

Matt

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kevin
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Post Post subject: Re: Solenoid/Starter, eh?
Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 03:54 PM
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according to whe wiring diagram for a 1970 bug on www.vintagebus.com (wiring diagrams), there are two wires to the startet.

ignition

battery

now there is a little known critter that kills the starter that most do not know/ think about.

pull the starter. have it tested.

now, take your finger and jam it into the bell housing where the starter sits. at the back side you should find a $2 brass bushing in a smaller hole. that is where the starter shaft sets into when activated (with some acceptions). remove the bushing with a LARGE easy out. tap a new one in.

between testing the starter and replacing the bushing, it should work.

as for the points, use a match book cover to get a general gap setting.

you could always tap the solenoid with a hammer pr blunt object and see if that will get it goin again too.


btw...please post more pics Wink


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Post Post subject: Re: Solenoid/Starter, eh?
Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 03:53 AM
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bajafun wrote:

as for the points, use a match book cover to get a general gap setting.


i think you use the actual match... .016"


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Post Post subject: Re: Solenoid/Starter, eh?
Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 06:02 AM
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My 72 sat for 3 years before I got it, and I had to replace the starter. If you have to buy one compare it to the old one very carefully.
As for the motor, I would not be surprized if you have to at least rebuild the carb if not buy a new one. The matchbook will probably at least get it to run, but I recomend buying a feeler gauge set. Plugs and wires would'nt hurt either.
One thing is almost certain. If it aint locked up, it will run. Don't give up.


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Post Post subject: Re: Solenoid/Starter, eh?
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 04:07 AM
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Thanks for the information guys. bajafun, that wiring diagram was exactly what I needed. After comparing the '70 and '72 it all makes sense.

I ended up pulling the starters from both bugs. The '70 was very mechanically rough, dirty and appeared well used when I pulled it apart. The '72 had a very fluid motion, and was much cleaner on the inside. It looked like it might have been replaced. However, I couldn't get solenoids from either starter to work... or adjust for that matter.

Here's a picture of the guts of the starter for the '72.



I'm thinking I might need to break down and buy a starter. I don't know of a place where I can buy just solenoids. Where do you guys go to buy old parts?

Or I might buy new. Bubba, you mentioned being careful when shopping for new starters. What did you have in mind?

Any other ideas?

Matt

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kevin
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Post Post subject: Re: Solenoid/Starter, eh?
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 04:43 AM
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first off, take a seat. Very Happy


my experience (and some others Ive learned from) usually drop the dough for a new starter. then its warrantied, no hassel till it falls apart Razz

BAP import parts (1970 starter):

new) 160.00 bosch

autozone:

rebuilt) 39.99

new - (Direct drive starter which has no internal gear set) 299.99

csk auto (checker/ shucks/ kragan)

reman w/ Manual Transmission w/ Bosch Direct Drive Starter w/ .8 Kilowatt Starter $81.49

reman w/ Manual Transaxle w/ .7 Kilowatt Starter $73.99


NEW w/ Manual Transmission w/ Bosch Direct Drive Starter w/ .8 Kilowatt Starter $139.00


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Post Post subject: Re: Solenoid/Starter, eh?
Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:26 AM
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AH! I figured as much. So what's the good news? Wink

I talked to someone last night and they mentioned jump starting the solenoid using jumper cables and a little extra juice. Their idea was that the solenoid might be frozen and just needs a little help. I've never heard of such a thing. Ever heard of this technique?

Oh well, I might be off to the shop to buy a new starter...

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Post Post subject: Re: Solenoid/Starter, eh?
Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 03:57 AM
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I mean that, sometimes Advance and Auto Zone don't seem to have thier information exactly right for bugs and you may have to compare with more than one year's starter
The first starter I got was not right and I had to return it. If you take the old one with you to compare It will save some time.


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Post Post subject: Re: Solenoid/Starter, eh?
Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 05:52 AM
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Bubba wrote:
I mean that, sometimes Advance and Auto Zone don't seem to have thier information exactly right for bugs and you may have to compare with more than one year's starter
The first starter I got was not right and I had to return it. If you take the old one with you to compare It will save some time.


in oregon where my baja used to live, the only store that carried vw parts was napa.

you just have to shop and figure who knows better. otherwise mail order from chirco, or whom ever.


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bugengr
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Post Post subject: Re: Solenoid/Starter, eh?
Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:59 PM
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Schucks, napa, and autosport all have starters... but some good news and bad news. I tried "jumping" the starter and to my surprise it finally turned over. Of course I had to use a screw driver to connect the battery-in post with the ignition plug. When installed it turns over the motor. The bad news - I can't find a spark anywhere, distributor, coil, or plugs. So now I'm beginning to think it could be a switch problem (assuming the wiring is good). I think I might be opening a can of worms here.

Any ideas on this?

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Post Post subject: Re: Solenoid/Starter, eh?
Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 03:59 AM
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I would start by checking the ignition switch.
I'm not sure if the colors will match mine but, there is a red wire with a black stipe that sends power to the starter when you turn the key to the start position.
There is a black wire that sends power to the engine when the key is in the on position. that wire goes to the fuse block where it is plugged into a jumper terminal right next to another black wire, that other black wire goes to the coil.
A meter is best but a test light will work. Disconnect the red/black stripe wire from the fuse block and check to see if you have power there when you turn the key to the sart position. If so, your problem is the wire going from the fuse block to the starter.
Do the same with the all black wire from the key switch with the key in the on position. If you have power there, plug that wire back in and disconnect the black wire at the coil coming from the firewall. Now check to see if you have power there with the key in the on pos. If you do I would suspect the coil.
You should also hear a click from the engine area when you turn the key to the on pos.
Like I said I don't know if the colors will match but it's not that hard to figure out which is which with a test light or a meter.
Good luck!


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